Marina Philippovna about the meeting with her son (Excerpts).


Natella Boltyanskaya: Hello, you are listening to Ekho Moskvy. This is Natella Boltyanskaya. And today we welcome Marinna Filippovna Khodorkovskaya as our guest. Hello.

Marina Khodorkovskaya: Hello.

N. Boltyanskaya: Not so long ago you came back from Chita. You had a meeting with Mikhail Borisovich. So, we want our dear listeners to see the entire trip with their own eyes. As far as I know the flight takes eight hours, doesn’t it?

M. Khodorkovskaya: It took us seven actually. It was a non-stop flight. The plane touched down early morning. We landed on Monday and on Wednesday afternoon we had the appointed meeting. I came to Chita together with lawyers. I wasn’t alone.

M. Khodorkovskaya: They treated us very well in the hotel. They didn’t even ask us to show our passports. I just entered and they give me the key for my favourite room.

N. Boltyanskaya: Is there a serious search at the entrance (to the pre-trial detention facility)?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, first lawyers take all the documents they brought from Moscow because permission for the meeting is signed in Moscow, not in the prosecutor’s office. So, first they take my passport and these documents and then go up to see the prison warden. They sign some pass there and allocate an officer to accompany you. This officer follows you for the meeting. And to reach the meeting it takes you 15 minutes walking, no less. On the whole, this all lasts three hours, including the walking time.

N. Boltyanskaya: What about Mikhail Borisovich? What does he look like?

M. Khodorkovskaya: He’s pale, of course, because they are allowed to take strolls in the colony, while here they let them out for a walk for only one hour He has grown very grey. Overall, in the present situation I believe that he looks more or less alright.

N. Boltyanskaya: Judging by the lawyers’ comments he still has his fighting spirit.

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes, that’s absolutely true.

N. Boltyanskaya: What makes you think so?

M. Khodorkovskaya: You know, I’ve been thinking about it myself. I’ve got a strong impression that he still holds out some hope of being freed one day. He has accumulated such enormous experience and he has been reflecting throughout all this time. He reads a lot. He does what he didn’t use to have time for when involved in business. And he probably wants to share this experience for the good of the country. He keeps up-to-date with current events in the country. There’s so much interesting to read and learn and he’s into human sciences.

M. Khodorkovskaya: We sat opposite each other. And the prison officer watched near the table. He entered with me. There are two people in there, even three. The same way, when we walk out two or three more people enter, besides the guarding security officer. They still allow us to say good-buy to each other.

N. Boltyanskaya: Can you tell us about Mikhail Borisovich’s daily routine there?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, actually you can’t talk about it. But now at present, when he is reviewing the case he is naturally taken to the prosecutor’s office for this purpose and he spends the whole day there. I don’t know when he finishes reviewing the new case. He, his lawyers and investigators all attend the procedure.

N. Boltyanskaya: Did you have the impression that the person was disconnected from the information flow?

M. Khodorkovskaya: No, I don’t, he keeps up-to-date with all current affairs in the country.

N. Boltyanskaya: Can you remember the first question he asked you several days ago?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, the first question, he learnt only then that his father felt a little ill. We discussed this issue. He told me, like, we were obliged to get over, receive the necessary treatment and meet him upon his release.

N. Boltyanskaya: You said he reads a lot…

M. Khodorkovskaya: When he has the review of his case file scheduled, he has little time (to read books and periodicals). Probably except for the weekends when he is not taken to the prosecutor’s office for the case file review.

N. Boltyanskaya: What about communicating with people?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, he has inmates and also the lawyer who regularly visits him.

N. Boltyanskaya: Is there anything that has dramatically changed in your opinion?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes, there is. He has become softer. I thought that under these circumstances he would get embittered. It was the other way round. We actually talked about many other things, besides things like home and the children. Like what is going on in the country. Inna has taken the children to the sea. She will start visiting her husband from September. We planned that she would first go with their daughter and then, probably, with the twins.

N. Boltyanskaya: Could you all visit him together?

M. Khodorkovskaya: No, we can’t

N. Boltyanskaya: When did the twins see their dad for last time?

M. Khodorkovskaya: In Matrosskay tishina prison.

N. Boltyanskaya: Will they recognise him now?

M. Khodorkovskaya: I think he’s like a legend for them. My daughter-in-law tells them about their father. And they look at his photos and some videos they made together when they were four years old.

N. Boltyanskaya: And what about the basic necessities, food and water?

M. Khodorkovskaya: He told me once that we shouldn’t waste our time on that matter. He doesn’t complain about the living conditions. He said he was doing well. And I don’t really know if he’s telling the truth. He has eyesight problems. He asked for spectacles. His eyesight had deteriorated much more than before.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: Is there a library in the pre-trial detention facility? Or do you have subscriptions?

M. Khodorkovskaya: No, there isn’t. You have to sign up. It’s better to ask the lawyers who order books on his behalf. And even if they have a library that’s not the kind of literature he would read.

N. Boltyanskaya: Do the periodicals arrive on time?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, there have been some setbacks. But they don’t arrive on time, they simply can’t because the newspapers he reads are not published in Chita. Of Moscow papers I only saw Argumenti i facti and Argumenti nedeli. I didn’t see any other serious papers. I asked for Novaya gazeta and they hadn’t even heard of it. No Vesti, Kommersant. Well, the carriage takes several days, of course. But he still gets them.

N. Boltyanskaya: Is there a TV set? A radio?

M. Khodorkovskaya: There’s a TV set, in poor condition but even so there is one. No radio.

N. Boltyanskaya: Is he allowed some physical activity?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Only an hour’s walk.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: Is the pre-trial detention facility inside or outside the city?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Inside, on the outskirts.

N. Boltyanskaya: Does it have a lot of people?

M. Khodorkovskaya: You mean the prison? The prison is very large. I think a thousand people. There are no Muscovites, I think, except for him and Lebedev.

N. Boltyanskaya: What is known about Platon Leonidovich’s condition?

M. Khodorkovskaya: After that road accident, I heard he had a small concussion and some injuries. And his lawyers demanded a medical examination for him immediately after the accident. And as far as I know they didn’t carry it out.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: There are human rights activists, journalists. Are the citizens of the city aware of the trial going on at present, that there’s a pre-trial detention facility and that some people are imprisoned there?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, they must be aware of what is going on to a certain degree. According to human rights activists, they organised some event on the square. They handed out some leaflets there. And actually people did come, so he knows about it. But I do not talk to anybody.

N. Boltyanskaya: What impression did the city make upon you?

M. Khodorkovskaya: It’s a very untended city. The pavements are all broken and there’s lots of garbage lying around. It’s very difficult to find a job. But I think judging by the Chinese goods, there are lots of chelnoks (or shuttles – small traders who go back and forth from countries as individual tourists with the purpose of buying or selling goods). And they also sell cars that way.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: So after you sat there and talked for several hours, at some moment the guard says to you: that’s it. Your time is over?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: Could you describe the premises? A table and chair?

M. Khodorkovskaya: This is a common room. It has a table, chairs., water in the corner and a basin.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: When you go all the way through (to the meeting room), do you see anyone?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Sometimes I see prisoners cleaning, sweeping, loading bread.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: What about the land? Is it green or is it bare?

M. Khodorkovskaya: There’s nothing there, no grass or trees, it’s a very old prison. It has small windows and a big building that faces the street, a high grey multi-storied brick building and very narrow windows.

<…>
N. Boltyanskaya: How is a prisoner provided with necessities?

M. Khodorkovskaya: He submits an application and his lawyers bring it to him.

N. Boltyanskaya: If some of his clothes are torn and he needs needles, as far as I can conclude…

M. Khodorkovskaya: They have some utility rooms where you probably can do something about it. I noticed he had his nails carefully trimmed. And his head, he always has his head shaved very short, therefore they have a shaving machine.

N. Boltyanskaya: What is he wearing?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, he had a plain shirt and some prisoner jacket on top.

N. Boltyanskaya: If he feels cold, does he has a sweater?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes, there are some. They have a list of clothes a prisoner can have.

N. Boltyanskaya: What about shoes?

M. Khodorkovskaya: He had some sneakers on. And since you are supposed to wear everything black, those were black too.

N. Boltyanskaya: How often can a prisoner take a shower?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Once a week or once every 10 days. During his entire imprisonment it has always been once a week or once in 10 days. Though when I start talking to him about the prison conditions he says it doesn’t matter.

N. Boltyanskaya: Does he receive many letters from the people that corresponded with him? Do people write to him now?

M. Khodorkovskaya: They do a lot. He apologises to many for not having enough time to reply to them.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: If a periodical contains some valuable information, is there any chance of him receiving it?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes, there is. He does receive Novaya gazeta, Kommersant, Vesti editions.

N. Boltyanskaya: As far as I can recall, not long before you went to Chita the verdict on Alexei Pichugin was read out. How did Mikhail Borisovich respond to that?

M. Khodorkovskaya: I asked him…of course, he feels very sorry for him. He finds this situation appalling.

<…>
N. Boltyanskaya: On Mikhail Borisovich’s birthday, June 26, you had an extra meeting, didn’t you?

M. Khodorkovskaya: No, it wasn’t an extra meeting. It was a regular one, it was just timed to coincide with that day.

<…>
N. Boltyanskaya: What thought first occurs to you when you leave the room?

M. Khodorkovskaya: You leave having no thoughts in your head. Sometime at night I start playing back everything he said.

N. Boltyanskaya: When the meeting is over, do you leave first or is he taken away first?

M. Khodorkovskaya: I leave first.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: Do you or any other member of your family, Boris Moiseevich, Mikhail’s wife, develop a feeling that you should have said things differently.
M. Khodorkovskaya: Well, I think everyone has such a feeling afterwards. Boris Moiseevich is more emotional than me so he actually experiences it more harshly. When I start asking him about what Misha was wearing and how he had his hair cut, he says he doesn’t remember, doesn’t remember at all. But then several days pass and he plunges into all the details.

N. Boltyanskaya: At what moment do you start counting days before the next meeting?

M. Khodorkovskaya: My daughter-in-law will start visiting him and then probably in the autumn it will be my turn.

N. Boltyanskaya: Is it possible for one family member to go instead of another? Or does it have to be arranged beforehand?

M. Khodorkovskaya: No, you do not arrange it in advance.

N. Boltyanskaya: When he was in Krasnokamensk there was a possibility of seeing him privately. Not you are not allowed that.

M. Khodorkovskaya: There is no such option in the prison.

N. Boltyanskaya: Thus, his wife cannot see him for a longer time. Still, in your opinion, are there any advantages of his imprisonment in Chita as compared with Krasnokamensk?

M. Khodorkovskaya: There are advantages and disadvantages to both. The only considerable drawback here is that they don’t have the possibility of taking a walk. So, they basically sit in their cells all the time. It’s a small cell and it must be very hard. There’s more freedom in the colony. Freedom of movement. And they work there. That at least is something. There is more of the outside world there besides the four walls you face every day.

N. Boltyanskaya: Do your relatives have the possibility of writing to Mikhail Borisovich?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes, they do.

N. Boltyanskaya: Does he receive their letters?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes, he does.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: Is it possible to send parcels?

M. Khodorkovskaya: No, it’s not. Because the local lawyers hand packages to him and because you can’t exceed a certain number of parcels limited by weight. You can buy everything you need regarding groceries in the city.

N. Boltyanskaya: There’s also a need for fruit, vitamins. Does he receive all that? What about medicines?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Yes, it’s possible.

N. Boltyanskaya: Are there some issues that you never fail to mention in your talks?
M. Khodorkovskaya: Every time I try to ask him questions that would show me his inner state. I actually go round and about because he never tells me such things directly.
N. Boltyanskaya: Is he closer to his mother or father?

M. Khodorkovskaya: He’s closer to me character-wise. But he is just as hard-working as his father. He has my strength of character, but inside he could live everywhere. There are so many interesting things to read and learn. Like he’s now into human sciences and is doing what he couldn’t do before.
<…>

N. Boltyanskaya: So you cannot bring him anything, no books, he asks for nothing whatsoever?

M. Khodorkovskaya: He doesn’t have to because he orders books by catalogues. It’s very inconvenient to pass books to him because in this case they have to be scrutinised by the prison chief censor while books sent via mail undergo less scrutiny.

N. Boltyanskaya: Still, the society is not indifferent about him. Every time Mikhail Khodorkovsky is mentioned on Ekho Moskvy you always see a polar reaction. There are people that write to give him regards and words of support, respect and love and people who emphatically argue…

M. Khodorkovskaya: He must be jailed for the rest of his life.

N. Boltyanskaya: Do you accept that he actually has split society?

M. Khodorkovskaya: Absolutely. The most important thing is that he managed to do that.

N. Boltyanskaya: I would like to thank Marina Filippovna Khodorkovskaya. It has been an exclusive interview for Ekho Moskvy radio station for ‘Svoimi glazami’ (“With your own eyes”) programme. You must hold on, I think you have incredible strength of character.

M. Khodorkovskaya: There is some.

N. Boltyanskaya: Thank you.

M. Khodorkovskaya: Thank you.